🎙️ Music, Reinvention, and Luck with Richie Brave

David speaks with Richie Brave, a presenter and broadcaster featuring on BBC 1xtra, BET, Channel 4 and more. He is an active voice in challenging social dynamics and speaking up for marginalised communities. He is also the host of 1Xtra Talks with Richie Brave that explores the realities of Black British identity and many other topics.

They talked about:

🎶 The influence of music on identity

🔄 The power of reinventing yourself

💪 Why second chances are important

🤔 The hidden forces behind youth behaviour

🤝 The transformative power of relationships

🌟 The truth about success

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📹 Watch on Youtube:

📄 Show notes:

[00:00] Introduction

[02:43] How life leads you to where you belong

[03:51] Music is more than entertainment

[05:41] Why music means everything to Richie

[07:43] The power of following your passions

[09:37] Lessons learned from music and therapy

[11:40] Learn to turn your pain into purpose

[15:14] The dangers of distraction

[18:26] The cycle of youth mislabeling

[20:32] The healing power of family and friendship

[22:39] How Richie built his career without a degree

[24:54] How consistency pays off

[27:07] Hard work alone isn’t enough

[29:55] Luck vs. hard work

[31:31] How to create your own definition of success

🗣 Mentioned in the show:

Elvis Presley | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley

The Beatles | https://www.thebeatles.com/

Motown | https://www.motownrecords.com/

Stormzy | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormzy

Cadet | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet_(rapper)

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

Deptford Township | https://www.deptford-nj.org/about-us

Shoe Zone | https://www.shoezone.com/AboutUs

The Black Joy | https://amzn.to/3Z0rIQM

University of Oxford | https://www.ox.ac.uk/about

University of Cambridge | https://www.cam.ac.uk/about-the-university

BBC | https://www.bbc.com/aboutthebbc

Meritocracy | https://theknowledge.io/issue26/

👤 Connect with Richie:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/RichieBrave

Podcast: 1Xtra Talks with Richie Brave | https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00v9nqd/episodes/downloads

👨🏾‍💻 About David Elikwu:

David Elikwu FRSA is a serial entrepreneur, strategist, and writer. David is the founder of The Knowledge, a platform helping people think deeper and work smarter.

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📜 Full transcript:

Richie: We live in this myth now and you see it a lot online that we live in some kind of meritocracy. And I don't necessarily believe that. I mean, if hard work paid off, then all of those people who are out there doing cleaning for 13, 14 hours a day would be the richest people on earth, right. So I think, hard work doesn't always pay off. If we look at capitalism, classism and all of that kind of stuff. But I would say I've been really lucky and my luck and maybe some of my achievements when I was young and my maybe tenacity were the things that paid off for me.

This week I'm resharing part of a conversation that I had a while ago with Richie Brave, who is a friend. He's a broadcaster and presenter featuring on BBC Radio 1 Extra, but you may have also seen him on BET, Channel 4, and lots of other platforms.

Now, Radio presenters play a very interesting and often underrated role in society, particularly in shaping culture, both through the music that they play and also through the conversations that they get to have with regular people on the street that might call in and also with their guests, the people that they have in their studio.

So in this episode, you're going to hear Richie and I talking about, first of all, the important role that broadcasters and presenters play in shaping culture and society. We talk about Richie's journey to becoming a presenter.

And then we talk about the intersections between music and culture, between music and mental health. We talk about the particular background of music in Black British culture specifically.

We also shared, both of us, the, the lessons that we learned growing up in particular sets of circumstances and some of the hidden forces that can shape young people's outcomes. we also talk about why second chances are important and the life changing impact and being surrounded by an enriching community.

And we talk about the pathways to discovering the work that you're meant to be doing and why it's important not to constrain yourself.

We talk about why college might not be the only path to ending up on the road that you're meant to be on. We talk about the truth about meritocracy and why success can look slightly different. for different people.

So if you love this episode, which I am sure that you will, you can get the full show notes, the transcripts and read my newsletter at thenowledge.io. You can find Richie online on Twitter @RichieBrave, and you can also listen to him on the radio or on his podcast at One Extra Talks with Richie Brave.

Now, please do share this episode with a friend and don't forget to leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts because it helps us so much to find other listeners just like you and keep making awesome episodes that you'll love. Please send me some feedback because I greatly appreciate it.

David: I want to ask more about those roles specifically, but I'm super interested in your background and how you got to where you are now. And that's one of the big reasons I wanted to have you on is because even when people think of okay, being a radio presenter, that's one of those things that so many people say, particularly young people, right?

Was that something that you originally envisaged as something you wanted to do when you were older?

Richie: Do you know what is so funny. So I think like with your hopes and dreams, they're swings around abouts, right? So they come and they go and they change throughout life. And I'd say radio is definitely something I've always wanted to do since I was young. And I forgot my dream a little bit, if that makes sense.

So when I was young like, I'd used to make fake radio shows on this little tape recorder that I had like to put little songs in there, it'd be really intricate recording songs off the radio and that. And I'd be only about six, you know, like five, six. So for me it was def and And I used to listen to like a lot of baseline FM and all of that back in the day, these are like community radios, pirate radio stations, essentially.

And I'd always want to be part of them and on the show and getting involved. So for me, it's definitely a dream come true in a lot of ways. But it was, it came in a really indirect way.

David: That's one thing I find so interesting about the music scene in the UK, and I'm sure maybe there's an extent to which this is exactly the same in lots of other places, but I know for us when talking about black British people, okay. For a start to a disclaimer, I wasn't actually born here, but I did come here, you know, as kid.

And so I experienced a lot of, you know, what, what everyone else experienced. So, but I know for you and for a lot of other people growing up, like music is a big part, even if, because the thing is, and the difference for us from the black community perspective is I think music is something that we made for ourselves a lot of the time. So music, isn't just what you're hearing on the radio, like the most popular tunes in the same way that if you're growing up and, you're hearing from a different demographic and you're hearing like, elvis Presley, or you're hearing the Beatles, if you want a form Liverpool specifically, okay, that might be close to you, but for most people that's somewhere distant, right. And then the music that they're making as popular music is somewhat distant. Whereas I definitely feel like for us, apart from maybe American music, like Motown and a lot of stuff that we had back then a lot of the music that

Richie: I'm not that old, you know, you Motown, you know,

David: no.

Richie: I'm joking, bro.

David: I mean like. I, at least from what I experienced, a lot of the music I grew up listening to was our music. I was listening to people at other schools. I was in school, I'm listening to like rappers and people in other schools and the music that they're making. And by the time I'm listening to radio, those are still like all of the rappers that I know a lot of them are people that my friends went to school with.

So even though there's people that you see now, like Stormzy or even okay, Cadet who has passed, unfortunately, but those are people that my friends went to school with. So when I'm listening to that music, not so much now, cause they are a lot bigger now, but at least back then, it was so much closer to home.

Richie: Do you know, what's interesting as well, and I think is often overlooked in black communities specifically. So if you're from west Africa, if you're from the west Indies, like I am like if you're, you know, of Caribbean descent, like essentially music was a way to connect you with your culture and connect you with home. So we'd come together. If you listen to like dance or reggae sound system culture all of those carnivores itself is based and rooted in Caribbean music, right. And essentially it was a taste of home. So, you know, if you look at people, if you look at white communities in Britain, they're connected with something that living in, right. Your white British, you're connecting with a music. That's all around you.

I think specifically for us, when we came over from West Africa, East Africa, South Africa, the West Indies, South America, music was a way for us to keep up to date with what was happening in our home countries and in our home areas and home, it allowed us to create a culture for ourselves. And then offshoots of that, you look at the lovers rock, I'm a music lover in it. So you look like your lover's rocks that you look at your hip hops, your jungle music, you had like dance artists from the UK. And then you look at like dubstep and garage and grime and Afro swing and all of that kind of stuff. There was that kind of, that touch of home, right? Our roots are embedded in the music that we create, which is really specific for us as black, British people. I think.

David: Sure. So music has always been a big part of your life.

Richie: Yeah, bro. Honestly, like when it comes to me and music and what's so wild about the relationship that I have with music is it's underpinned everything for me. You know, some people are like football heads and sports heads, and this heads. Me from my youth collecting music. Wasn't interested in, well I was a computer geek as well when I was young. I wasn't interested in anything where everyone was out there playing sports. I was in my room listening to tunes. I didn't want to go anywhere cause I was just listening to music. My dad's a music man. My mum's a music man. My uncle is a sound man. Like literally I come from a long line of musical people. I am not just a music lover. I'm a music fanatic. I am obsessed, obsessed with it.

David: I love that. So you, so that was always something that you were kind of destined to go into in some way.

Richie: Yeah, in some ways. So, I mean, for me on the radio as a broadcaster, I am a talk broadcaster, right. So what I do specifically is talk, so I speak a lot about black culture, but I don't think essentially you could do that without having some sort of understanding of the music that underpins our experience.

So for me, like what's really good for me is I've got that talk experience from like being like a CBT therapist and all that kind of stuff. But because I'm a music maniac as well, I can do like my weekend show and have those really deep conversations. And then I can go and cover a music show in the daytime and know what I'm talking about. I can do an Afro beat show. I know the ins and outs of it. A dance will show an R and B show just because of the things that I love. So it's being able to take something that really sits within you and create something as a result of it.

David: Sure. You mentioned a couple of things there, like being a CBT therapist. So maybe take me on the journey of how you got to being where you are now. Cause I know that there's a lot of really interesting stops along the way.

Richie: Yeah. So, I mean, if we're doing my whole life story, I'm going to try and condense it into a couple of minutes. I started off as somebody who was interested in computers, like I said, a computer geek. So everything I did in school, I was quite a high achiever in school. Did really well A's and not on my GCSEs and was really focused on computers. Went to college, a number of things happened in my life. I got kicked out of both colleges that I went to because I was just a bit of a rough youth I had a lot going on. And then I went into the probation service and did many years there. I was a youth worker from the age of 16. So when I went into the probation service at 19, my youth work experience allowed me to go into that.

And then I specialized in rehabilitation programs where you're trained to deliver CBT based programs based on like domestic abuse or sexual abuse or violence or drink drive in all of that kind of stuff.

David: Could you just define CBT just quickly.

Richie: So I'm so sorry, cognitive behavioral therapy. So basically what that is, is like your thoughts, feelings, and behavior.

If you're able to influence your thoughts, it has an impact on your feelings and then it has an impact on your behavior. So that's what CBT is giving you relevant skills to change your behaviors or approaches to things. So I did that for years, and then I was writing reports for call on people pretty successfully because none of the people I wrote reports on went to prison.

You know, I kind of really like honed in on my community and was able to do a lot from that perspective. But that, I'm saying all this to say, and this is short one last point, I did all of that. And those interviewing skills that I got from the criminal justice system allowed me to be a great broadcaster, an interviewer and presenter, because I picked up those skills that I used and use them with celebrities. And, you know, your average like day people that you sit down and speak to.

David: You know what? I actually really want to dig deep on some of those earlier years. I know that obviously it's not so much what you're doing now, but what I find really interesting, okay. Let me speak for myself and the position that I'm in is one what I find so interesting. And I feel like there's always this constant duality for me.

So right now, full-time I work in tech, I work this big tech startup that's growing really fast. And before that I was working in corporate law. So again, it's this big like, one of the biggest firms in the world. So not in terms of humble bragging, but to say that the people that I'm surrounded by, I live in an entirely different world from the world that I grew up in.

And when you just mentioned, okay, that you got kicked out of college and but I was in that position as well. I got kicked out of school, actually. Okay, technically. Oh, I left just before I got kicked out. They'd already arranged the school governors meeting to decide whether or not I'd be kicked out. But I think I had 386 incidents slips by the time I left. And this is in year nine, this is in year nine. So I'd only been, I'd only done two and a half years at that school before I had to leave. So, but what's crazy, at least for me is that that's not the side of me that I really get to like represent

Richie: Yeah,

David: day know mean

That's not something that I'm going to necessarily go around talking about. Not that I said there's an issue with that, but not everyone gets it and not everyone gets what life is like in certain areas or certain neighborhoods, or so maybe tell me more about what life was like for you coming up in, in the area that you lived in and what that experience was like.

Richie: Yeah, I think I'm really lucky in that my parents tried to give me all that they did the all that they could, but I came from kind of a poor background, really. I hate to be the stereotype, but you know, All the latest trainers in order that the kids had in school. I didn't have none of that. My parents basically made sure there was always a computer in my house and we could go on holiday once a year, if we possibly could. That was the luxury and everything else was just, you know, I went in Deptford market to buy my clothes. You know, that's why I got my school shoes from like ShoeZone and that when people were pointing and laughing at them kind of shoes, but for me, like my parents were big on experiences and resources, as opposed to making sure I'm in the latest fashion, you know, that kind of stuff.

And we just couldn't afford it, bro. Like if it wasn't Deptford market, we've got it all on catalog and was having to pay two pound a week and all of that. So I came from that an area that's considered really violent. I was in the midst of like real bad gangs and all of that. I'm from new cross. If anyone knows what new cross was in like late nineties, early two thousands, that was a crazy area to be a young person in. You know what I mean, to be a kid in. So like I come from that, man. I've lost a lot of my friends to murder my cousin. And this is why I think I got kicked out of college. My cousin was murdered when I was 17. We were best friends, two weeks between us, you know, stabbed in the heart. And that was it. So like, I just think, when you come from those particular backgrounds where it's less about living and more about survival and trying to survive your childhood, rather than trying to live your childhood and people don't get that happens in these countries, it provides you a particular perspective. But I think when you see so much hurt and pain in your community, and I definitely saw it in my and joy. And I don't want to label the negative points, we had sound systems come to our ends, the kids all knew each other when we were really young, my teacher in primary school was amazing and champion young black people. I was a gifted kid, very intelligent. Don't know what happened now, but you know, gifted child, he put me in like gifted child programs. I got moved up three years in school when I was like six, seven years old. In order to act, so there was a lot of positives that was happening in the ends, but that, the area, because it was so deprived and because there wasn't any, there wasn't enough resources, I think, as a direct impact on what you think you can be, you know, what you want to be, but there's a difference between that and what you think you can be, right.

So even going into youth work and community justice, I think a lot of that for me, bro, is attempting to try and heal my community in some way and find out what the hell was going on. Do you know what I mean? So it underpinned a lot, a lot of what I do, man.

David: Yeah, so much of what you said resonated with me as well, because I think even with my background, for example, I don't even think I necessarily, I didn't grow up in like the roughest area. Okay, when I first came to the UK, we lived in Lewisham and then we lived in Penge we're moving around a bit. Yeah. And then we moved to north London. You know, in, in many ways, like nicer or safer

but still, I think, I don't know if it's just the kind of school that I went to or that maybe the kind of people that you clump to, but even from what you were saying, I think you just see a lot at a very young age like, I remember even year seven, year eight. My first day of secondary school, I was in a fight. So I was at, I was in detention from day one and that already sets the trend of, you know, where you're going to be going, because those are the first people that you meet is everyone else that's in detention. And then that's your, those are your new friends. Now you're in detention like half the days of the week, blah, blah.

And you'll go

Richie: On report

David: Yeah. exactly. I was on report actually. I was on report from long before that,

Richie: Say four years spent on rapport.

David: Yeah, exactly. Mine was probably a longer if I'm honest, that's why I'm happy to be where I am now, but I feel like I was extremely fortunate.

So like what you were saying, I think, you know, I was bright. I was in like top sets for everything, but I think part of the issue actually for me was when I came from Nigeria, I was actually like two classes ahead. And as we were moving around, because obviously, maybe it took a bit of time to settle. I think when I first came my mum couldn't come with us cause she needed to sort out her visa. So it was just me and my dad then my mum came after, so, you know, there's a lot of transition there.

And in that time, I think as you move to different schools, then they're like moving you back to saying, oh, we want you to be with your age mates or all of this. So by the time I've moved school, I think at least twice now in the UK. So this is now my third even primary school. Now I'm doing stuff that I've already done in this class. So I'm bored, so I'm not really paying attention. I don't need to focus. I don't need to concentrate. And that's what leads to misbehavior and leads to all these other.

But what I'm interested in is, cause I remember when I joined secondary school, I called, I couldn't tell you what it was like, how I ended up getting into so much trouble. I just think a lot of it is just your environment and the kind of things that you see, you go to fights, people bring knives. Even from like 11, 12, 13 years old, you're seeing all of that. You're exposed to and all of that. And I know that for me, I was very fortunate in that. I feel like, I got in so much trouble so young. If I was getting in that trouble at 16, I wouldn't be here today. That's why I can tell you, but because I was getting in that kind of trouble at like 12, I Already, yeah, exactly, I already had my final police warning and I already had all of that stuff from very young. So I already knew. So I remember getting told that if I got in trouble again if like, I think that was like my last warning, so it was the earlier of five years or when you turn 18 that you have like this temporary record for, so you're just, so now I have to like be good. Now it's by force.

Richie: Yeah, but the policing of young people, and I think the problem that I have with that right, is nobody, everyone wants to view the young person as a problem, but never wants to get to the root of the issue. So why is this person acting out in a way that they are?

I started moving mads cause I got bored of everyone taking the effin p out of me. You know what I mean? I got bored of I was like, yo, like, cause I'm quite a soft natured, loving person. I am very like, I'm a big softie, a proper care bear I always say it, but like growing up in a particular environment like that doesn't do anything for you. So you get to a point where you're like, you know what people keep taking me for a mug. And I'm sick of it. So normal it's to see my softness in school in terms of the teachers, all they saw was me running my mouth, but I experienced bullying from pupils and teachers. So you get to a point where you're like 14 and you're like, nah, I'm not having this. Are you mad? I'm not a fool. So I got to a point where I was like, I've had enough. None of you are going to sit down and ask me what's wrong. You all want to act like I'm a problem. All right, cool. Let me be a problem for you.

And that's the way it went, man.

David: So how did you find that you were able to remove yourself from that? Cause, so that was the point I was going to get to, for me, I felt like I was lucky because it was forced, like I was forced to move school and it was either, so my dad ended up having to take a loan. So when I left, I told you about how many incidents slips I had.

Richie: Yeah. And you said police as well.

David: Yeah. So no, no, no other school in my borough would take me. So my dad had to get alone and I had to go to like an international school that was still in my area. Otherwise we'd have to move house again. I moved to a whole different area. So I was very fortunate in retrospect that I kind of got uprooted from that situation and just go move somewhere else completely, and now I have to make new friends and I have to do it all again. And that gave me a fresh start. And all of a sudden, within like half a year now I'm in gifted and talented. Now I'm doing this and I'm doing that. All kinds of flourishing comes from that.

So I'm interested, like for you particularly, also at the age that you were like, how did you find that you were able to go from a place where, you know, you start where you're getting in trouble, you're getting involved in all kinds of things. And then you go from there to now you're being able to help other people. You're helping other young people, you're doing the CBT related things. How do you make that transition?

Richie: I found friends who saved me. So I made friends. I had a friendship group when I was about 17, who loved me unconditionally and helped me through my pain. And if I didn't have them, I don't know who I'd be right now. They completely, and I wrote about them, The Black Joy book that came out, I wrote a chapter in it. And I spoke about them because they completely changed my life.

I was able to do that is I found my tribe, right. I found a group of people that loved me, like family, and that completely changed my life. And I had a mom and dad who completely loved me and removed pressure from me. They said to me, yo Richie, like after going through like the murder of my cousin and stuff, they are a bit like, you know what, as my son, I want to see you happy. Your happiness is paramount. We can see you're in a bad place. It's not about achieving right now. It's about being a happy person and healing yourself. So my parents removed that pressure and I felt a lot freer.

So I'd say that's what spun me around. Like having parents who really loved me and supported me and having a friendship group that embraced every single part of who I am.

David: That's so true. And I think what you just said also speaks to how big of an impact the people that you either are surrounded with, or the people that you intentionally surround yourself with, how big of an impact they make on your life and your trajectory.

Richie: Definitely, man I just, I was someone who just didn't take no for an answer. So like when I got kicked out of my first college, cool. And then I became an IT manager at 16, you know, IT manager at some a racial equality organization that does fantastic work with the 1990 trust. And then, I went the day my cousin was murdered. I went and signed up to college, so I knew I wanted to achieve something, right. And then I got kicked out of that college. And then I spent a year raving. Got tired of it and was like, I need to get a job now. So I got a job in it.

And even through that time where I was just raving, I was still volunteering as a youth worker. So I always had something to do. I like to be occupied doing something great. So even with all of that stuff going on, I was always looking at, I was always wanting to do something and it was just lucky that I was doing things that I led me to being who I am now.

David: Okay. Did you end up going to like finishing college or going to university?

Richie: No, I did. Uni later on in life, you know, so I uni as an adult through my job, but I didn't go to uni. I didn't finish college. I wasn't on it. I just went into work.

David: I love that.

Richie: Which right? And I think this is what's really important. I'm not saying, oh, don't finish school and don't finish university. I think, they are a fantastic thing to have under your belt, right. But you know, if you are unable to go to university and you are unable to go to college, you really can achieve, like, I didn't do that. I wasn't able to finish that. And I'm still successful. Sometimes more successful than people who have gone through all of that. And maybe in a few years there'll be more successful than I am, but there's always hope, man. There is always hope.

David: Absolutely man. Like I didn't, I didn't finish my degree. Either so, well, I say I have a, you, you did your side. I didn't. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking. I'm hoping, you know, my dad says it will, but I'm hoping it doesn't come back to bite me. I can just continue, continue to thriving. But

I think that's a big thing because and it really does tie into what we were talking about about like upbringings and stuff, because I also think that we are conditioned to believe that there's only one way to become successful and then it becomes very difficult to create your own path outside of that, because there's very much a situation where even from school, teachers already looking for who's supposed to be the brightest kids and then they are pigeonholding them into, okay. You're bright, now you're going to apply to Oxford or Cambridge. You guys go over here, the rest of you kids, you know, figure it out for yourself. And this is the only way you have to go from secondary school. You go to sixth form and you go from sixth form, and you go to university like this is the way.

So maybe I'd love to hear from you about how you found that process of figuring out for yourself, because I can imagine, well, I don't know how many people were in a similar position to you, but I can imagine that very often it can be a bit isolating because maybe you see some people that you grew up with that are taken one particular path or going the complete opposite way. Because you are still aspirational, you're still trying to build something. And I think what you typically get is on one hand, there's the people that just leave the system completely and they're not doing any of that. And then on the other hand, you get people to all following the traditional route and it looks like they're progressing and it looks like they doing things the normal way.

Richie: David, you know what I was trying to build, but I didn't know what, you know, I was just got on vibes. I was just like, it's just vibes. I need to be occupied with something. What am I good at? Ah, let me go and do that. So like, my life probably properly was just vibes. I didn't know what I was working towards. I didn't know where I went to be. I literally just took the opportunities that were presented in front of me and little by little, those opportunities took me in a particular direction. So, you know, some people are like, yo, this is my life. This is who I'm going to be. And when I am 45 years of age, this is, I said, I just want to be alive. So as long as I'm alive and I've got some money in the bank, I'll be happy.

So basically like even so you see the probation thing, I said, I went into criminal justice. I don't remember applying for the job. I got an interview like, oh, and I was like, oh, sick. I all right, let's go in so I went in as Admin and then doing the cognitive behavioral therapy groups came up, a job, came up. So I just applied bro I was only 20, you know, young. So 21, I went into that job doing CBT therapy with grown adults, murderers, baddest man on road. All of that I was really young, but it was just vibes.

And then the next step into broadcasting, somebody believed in me and was like, yo, have you ever thought about doing a podcast? I've seen you online. I did a panel event. He was like, you're wicked at panels. Have you ever thought about doing a podcast? I was like, yeah, of course I have. David, lies. I didn't even think about that. I was just vibesing. You know what I mean? Cause I feel I want to get in there somehow did a podcast. It was a success as a result of the podcast got brought on to do another one on the BBC and then it was like, well, these podcasts are amazing.

Do you want to come and do one extra talks? And here I am. You know, so it was, David it's vibes. I was like it's some, yeah, deeply did a plan for it was for the vibes man. Hard work, but vibes.

David: Exactly. I think that's it. It's, it's two things. One is hard work and two is the consistency. And I think that's also the part that you showed as well, which is okay. There's vibes in that you're just figuring things out as you go along, but you're also building skills intentionally. Like even if you land in a position that you may not have planned to be in while you're there, you're picking up skills and then you're leveraging them to get the next thing.

Richie: That is it. And that's not always easy to be honest, David, I think like we live in this myth now and you see it a lot online that we live in some kind of meritocracy. And I don't necessarily believe that. I mean, hard work. If, if hard work paid off, then all of those people who are out there doing cleaning for 13, 14 hours a day would be the richest people on earth, right. So I think, you know, like hard work, doesn't always pay off. If we look at capitalism, classism and all of that kind of stuff. But I would say I've been really lucky and my luck and maybe some of my, my achievements when I was young and you know, my maybe tenacity were the things that paid off for me.

David: Absolutely. You said,

No, I love that. I think the exact same way. And I think you said two really important things there. One was about meritocracy. And it's so interesting because I wrote about this in my, in my newsletter a while ago, but I genuinely think that meritocracy exists for the people that believe in it. And that's not a, a, you know, speak what you want into the world kind of thing that I'm saying. But what I'm saying is, I genuinely think a lot of it is about mindset and not that some people don't have the right mindset. I don't want to couch this too much, but my point in basically being that, I genuinely think if you grow up in a kind of environment where one, you see a lot of role models, you see people that look like you, they have confidence, they have audacity, they have certain skills. They're attractive. All of those things you already believe success is possible. Then you're taught that, oh, if you just work hard it's possible.

I think it becomes very easy to adopt that worldview because it looks like it's possible because you see so many examples of people that look just like you doing those things. And it looks like, oh, if I just work hard. And so I genuinely think that a lot of people do believe that, but the reason they believe that is because they were brought up to believe that. And I think they only have the perspective that they have. Whereas I think, other people that are growing up in different circumstances also have the perspective that as much as you might want to work hard, there were other things that are systematic and institutional things that can prevent you from getting things that you want.

And so I think it is equally important to have that mindset where you don't take no for an answer, a hundred percent important. That's been the one of the biggest keys to success for me and for you as well. I also think you have to be able to recognize that, it's not that these things will stop you. And I don't think that you should have these limiting beliefs that, oh my gosh, as hard as I work, you know, I'm not going to be able to make it because of the police or because of schools or because of whatever system is in place, you can work around that. But there is just inherent in the society that we have. Unfortunately, not everyone that works hard or has those beliefs will have equal amounts of success.

Richie: The majority of people will not. And that's how capitalism and classism works the majority. So what ends up happening for me, David, is they hold up these very specific examples and say, look at this person who is very amazing. And they worked very hard and look what they can achieve for one Richie Brave. There were probably about a hundred Richie Braves up there that are probably better at me and more talented than I am and more intelligent than I am, but they weren't lucky enough to have the opportunities that I did.

So would say hard work has definitely been a factor in my journey, I'm under no illusions that there are probably lots of men out there. My age had the same opportunities that I had, but just what, or have all the same skills and better than I have, but just weren't lucky enough to have the same opportunities for me. That's why open as I did. So that's why opening the door is really important for me.

David: And I think even from what you were saying, luck is also the other important thing and every, every successful person, however you want to think about it for yourself. Every person that has some success has luck, loads, and loads of luck for me, for everyone that I know whether you acknowledge it or not, everything that's ever happened in your life has been some form of luck.

You're not born and you decide that, you know, every decision that goes in your favor has to be that way. And everything that you write has to be perfect. Like none of those things are things you can predetermine. Those are the things that happen to you. But I think the one thing you can do and, and you've done is that you can put yourself in a position to benefit from luck when it happens.

Richie: Yeah, bro. I'm one of the luckiest people alive.

David: No for real, but you, you, you have to be, you have to be, and you have to like build your skills. And like you said, because this is the other side of, of what you said as well, I can equally imagine that as much as there's a hundred Richie Braves that have, that wouldn't even get the opportunities that you might have had, just because of luck.

There's also a thousand Richie Braves that have been in that position where someone might suggest something, or there's an opportunity that comes up and they're not inquisitive, or they don't capitalize that opportunity. And they don't seize the moment. And that happens so much, whether it's because we have something in our minds that says, I can't do this, or I'm not good enough. Or sometimes, maybe there are people that are just don't have that same maybe like hunger or the same ambition that you might have to seize yeah, exactly.

So people don't always seize on the opportunities that exist. So I think, yeah, it's, it's that there's two factors. One is that we don't create enough opportunities in the first place two, is that okay? It's actually three things. Two is that we don't do a good enough job of signposting opportunities because there's loads of things that exist.

And you know, this is going back to something else that you mentioned that it made me think about is that, one of the biggest issues that we have, and this is why maybe classism and some of these other things still play such a big factor is because going back to what I said before, where we're taught to believe, there's only one way so long as we believe that there's only one definition of what success looks like, there's a limited opportunities to be that version of success. When they hold up one person and they say, you know, oh, you know, they did X, Y, Z. They graduated with this, they did that, they did this masters they got this job. Okay. There's only limited numbers of people that can do that exact path, but that's not the only way to be successful. I can make my own path and be successful and do well. And I think we don't necessarily emphasize that's enough, the possibility of everyone building their own version of success.

Richie: That is why I think it's so important to assess is relative. And it changes by generation as well. Success for my grandparents who had just been able to survive this England, like, because it's, so it was so racist when they and it's still proper racist, but they couldn't even get homes in that, right. So success for them was just survival for successful. My parents' generation, a lot of them was just having a home that they can call their own and that they can buy for our generation is being a homeowner and having the dream and having, what is it? Six figures that people talk about all the time on the TL and stuff, you know, so I think success is dependent. It, it changes.

I had a conversation recently about young black youth, right. And it was about like allowing young black people to reimagine and to dream and just dream about a future for themselves. And I think that's so important. We're so fixed on putting these people in boxes that we don't allow them to dream up a future for themselves.

So I think what you have touched on quite rightly is continuing to push man. And you know, when it's young people coming up, or even if it's people, your age are older, keeping the door open to people, man, like not gatekeeping your experience, giving people a door in or a foot into what you're doing and allowing them to see it and feel it, experience it and do it for themselves.

David Elikwu: Thank you so much for tuning in. Please do stay tuned for more. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. It really helps the podcast and follow me on Twitter feel free to shoot me any thoughts. See you next time.